tv Piers Morgan Tonight CNN June 14, 2012 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT
another edition. the investigation into a charity, where the money they've been raising has actually gone. "piers morgan tonight" starts now. tonight, shocking stories from victim after victim all saying jerry sandusky sexually abused them. the latest on the case that's ripping penn state apart. bitter memories of his own childhood abuse. michael reagan tells his story. plus money talks. obama versus romney. dueling candidates in a showdown over the economy. >> if you want to give the policies of the last decade another try, then you should vote for mr. romney. >> president obama is on the other side of the state delivering a speech on the economy. >> talk is cheap. action speaks very loud. >> the tough questions to the romney and the obama campaign. >> he called us the rocky seven. >> now, he remembers the man who fought for peace and justice and his life growing up in a legendary family. plus, only in america, a slice of heaven or hell.
the pizza vending machine. this is "piers morgan tonight." the former penn state defensive coordinator is accused of sexually abusing ten boys over the span of 15 years. today, one of those boys victim number six told his story. a story that triggered a police investigation. he told his mother about an incident when he was 11 years old. he said he only told her bits and pieces. not about everything that happened. his mother called police. this is the attorney for the young man victim number six. it was very difficult to listen to. i suppose what was striking about it was that despite the abuse that your client suffered, he said he stayed in touch with sandusky over the years. sent him holiday greetings. saying you're great, you're
awesome and so on. why would he have done that? how do you explain that with a jury sitting there, maybe quiz call about why your client would do that? >> let me say this. if the jurors are hearing that, the other young men who were abused as children testify as well, and that story is pretty uniform as between them. there's a reason behind that. because these kids, now young men, to the extend they're able to do it, create a bit of a chinese wall in their mind. they bury these events that were so painful tore them deep in their subconscious. they try to move beyond that. there's a chinese wall that's created. and in reality, when you're dealing with someone who is -- as sandusky is being portrayed to be, a serial child abuser, you're talking about somebody who is successful at it because they're successful at manipulating people. they're not only successful at manipulating the children, they
were successful at manipulating the parents who allowed continuing contact to take place. >> there is a growing pattern that's been emerging day by day, very similar stories, very similar grooming process. classic, many would say, pedophile behavior. i thought probably the most significant moment today came when the police investigated, testified, that he heard sandusky tell your client's mother, i wish i could ask forgiveness. i know i can't get it from you. i wish i were dead. he said he felt charges should have been filed against him at the time. why were no charges filed after such an astonishing statement to a mother of a victim? why do you think nothing happened? >> well, it's the $64,000 question. and when one looks at the circumstances that were known to the police and the police themselves who did the on the ground investigations, concluded that charges should have been filed and they weren't, the question certainly is why
weren't they. were they not pursued because of who the perpetrator was, because it was jerry sandusky? were they not pursued because penn state had some influence in connection with that? i don't know that we're ever going to know the answer to that. because the prosecutor who made the official decision apparently no longer is on this earth for us to question about that. frankly, even though that was the official discussion that was made, i'm far from convinced that's what he really believed was the right thing in his heart. you get some sense about the legit mae legitimacy of decisions. they decided to ignore other information that essentially cried out for further investigation. sandusky specifically admitted when questioned by the officer about his behavior he had showered with other children before. and now he's expressing remorse for having done that. recognizing his wrong. saying i wish i were dead.
yet he acknowledged he's done it with other children and they're not conducting a further investigation to find out some of the details about that. that's another compelling question. >> as the father of three boys myself, when i read some of the trap script of your client's evidence, particularly this line, it really got to me this. made me very angry. i didn't want to get him into trouble. i still wanted to hang out with him and go to the games. he told me he had a computer. i could sit on his lap and play with the computer. i still wanted to do that. i mean this is just sickening grooming at its most cynical and precise, isn't it? this is somebody who knows exactly what he's doing grooming these young boys for sexual abuse. >> well, what's also clear is that this young man not only talked to police right after this incident, he spoke to a psychologist. he told the psychologist basically the same thing that he told the jury here today. basically the same thing he said before the grand jury, about what transpired in the shower and the activity that happened
on the drive over. and it's -- and it's just amazing that an opportunity was lost here. and this psychologist who interviewed this young man reached the conclusion back at that time and generated a report to this effect that in her opinion, based on the information she had, jerry sandusky exhibited the conduct that is consistent with what you would expect of a pedophile. >> i have to obviously say -- >> again, compelling evidence. and no evidence. >> i have to say jerry sandusky remains innocent until proven guilty. the evidence is certainly mounting up in a pretty grotesque manner. thank you very much for joining me. >> you're very welcome. >> now, more of my big stories. alan dershowitz. and dr. janet taylor, a psychiatrist. let me start with you, janet taylor. because i can see you reacting to what you were hearing there. what is your assessment of
what's been going on this week in court? >> well, you know, i'm so thankful these survivors came forward because maybe we can put an end to the notion that a, boys don't get sexually a becaused, or we can't get enough evidence to get what i think frankly is a monster who has groomed, who used his power of authority to take advantage of these victims. so i think we're hearing the stories as we need to, they're horrible, that maybe we will listen to our children, notice what's going on with them and bring people like this to justice. >> one of the bizarre aspects of this is that the state that is putting this on is the only state in america that doesn't allow expert testimony. which i just find absolutely baffling. why would they not allow it? what difference does that make to a jury's ability to comprehend perhaps some of what is going on and what they're hearing? >> this is going to sound strange but i think the best gift the prosecution has is that they can't put on expert testimony.
jurors are very skeptical of expert testimony in cases like this. they think of concepts like grooming and looking at consistent patterns and trying to figure out whether a person is guilty because he fits a diagnostic category. the prosecution doesn't need that in this case. the prosecution has a triangular case. they have the eyewitnesss who seem credible. they seem to have all done well under cross examination. they have people who are corroborating that. they have a kind of admission almost by the defendant. i wish i were dead. they don't need an expert to come in, kind of insult them and tell them, oh, by the way, if you don't understand this, let me explain to you, this is the way pedophiles operate. they're much better off in a case like this making it factual and specific and not relying on expert testimony, which is often looked at suspiciously. >> i think if you're in that
jury, you're hearing day by day, worst accounts. today, victim number nine gave probably the most serious i thought account of really serious sexual attacks that he was receiving from san dusky. this goes way beyond showering with boys. >> no question about that. i'm frankly very glad i'm not the defense attorney in this case. the defense attorneys are going to be spending a very difficult weekend trying to decide which is the most difficult decision a defense attorney ever faces. do you put on a defense? do you put the defendant on? i think the only conceivable defense that could work in a case like this would be not to put the defendant on but to try to get external evidence showing that these young men, these alleged victim, actually got together, talked, compared notes, either themselves or through lawyers, and that what appears to be a pattern, the blowing on the stomach, the showers, all results from a
conspiracy among these people or their lawyers to make a strong case. now, i don't for a moment believe that. but that would be the only kind of defense that could work. putting this defendant on the witness stand after the letters he's written, after what he said to bob costas, after what he said to this woman, i just don't think there's any percentage in doing that. >> i totally agree with you. janet taylor, let's talk about these boys. they're adult men obviously. you've experienced a lot of this over the years. what kind of trauma will they be suffering? how traumatic is it to come to a courtroom and relive the abuse they've maybe in some cases hidden from family and friends? >> when you've been abused, physically and also emotionally, abuse of trust, every trauma can be a layer. on the one hand, telling the story can help because they're getting it out and hopefully they can see the defendant brought to justice. also, it is another trauma. listening. there are victims of sexual abuse listening to this trial
who are reliving and also experiencing trauma. trauma can be real and susta sustained. >> i can rarely remember this volume of victims giving such coherent, compelling emotional and apparently credible testimony. >> well, let me tell you that there have been such cases. and they've turned out very bad. the case in california, the mcmartin case. where the kids gave consistent testimony and it turned out it was all fake. it was all made up. it was all the fault of experts who came in and kind of fed them the information. there have been another one, the case in massachusetts. there have been case after case. where young people have been brainwashed into giving totally false testimony. about whether appeared to be horrendous, monstrous events. i'm not suggesting this happened here. >> let me bring in -- >> all due respect there are a number of victims who never come forward at all. think we have to be really careful to say just because we come forward and just because there have been cases where maybe it has been fabricated,
adults and kids still do not speak enough about abuse and do not bring their abusers to trial. >> i completely agree. >> finally, the crucial thing here, shore of surely, i think, is that we have adult witnesses too who saw what was going on to a certain degree. >> absolutely. >> i think that gives it the real edge of credibility. that if you were prosecuting this, you'd be after. >> absolutely. you have objective witnesses who have no stake in this, who are not advocates for young children. a guy who walks in a shower. he loves sandusky and sees this going on. how do you contradict this testimony? it seems like a slam dunk. you never know. >> thank you both very much. sandusky case is ripping penn state apart and spelled the end of the career of one of the greatest coaches in college sporting history. joe paterno. tomorrow, my interview with the man who knew him well, the man
they called coach k, mike krzyzews krzyzewski, the head coach of the duke men's basketball team. >> it's a difficult situation to encounter but you had somebody who's given six decades of service to the university and done such an incredible job. somehow you have to let -- something has to play out and respect the fact you've gone through all these experiences for six decades. doesn't just go out the window. you know, right at the end. i thought it was a real mistake by penn state's leadership. >> more from a quite revealing interview with coach k not just on that but also about his forthcoming olympics where he's hoping to take the american all-stars to gold medal victory. you can hear that tomorrow night. coming up, a man who has strong feelings about the sandusky trial. michael reagan. he was the victim of sexual abuse. ♪ [ acoustic guitar: slow ]
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missed? like, i knew the kid was upset but he's a part of second mile. second mile is troubled kids. so i'm just thinking the kid is troubled and that's why he's here. >> that was lavar arrington who played at penn state with joe paterno. he saw the boy we know as victim number four at jerry sandusky's second mile charity. michael reagan, a man who knows all too well what it's like to be a victim. he was abused as a child. he's also the son of former president ronald reagan. i'm sure you've been listening to this testimony with a very heavy heart. what do you think these boys who are now men have been going through to have to relive in public what they went through? >> let me tell you, piers, i don't think there's a child out there who hasn't been sexually abused and isn't right now reliving what these young men are, in fact, testifying too and how they're having to relive it as i talk to you tonight.
i just have a knot in my stomach. because these stories are so familiar to those of us who in fact have lived these stories with these predators that are out there. and you and i have talked about this before, you know, off air. the fact that, you know, for a year of my life when i was 8 years old i was sexual abused by a day camp counselor. ultimately took me up to the mountain, had me take my clothes off, took photographs of me and had me develop the photographs and said, wouldn't your mother like to have a copy. my life ended that day. absolutely ended. i didn't tell my father i loved him till 1991 is the first time i told my father i in fact, loved him. i didn't tell my wife, my mother, my sister, my father, till 1987 when i wrote my first book. this is something you learn to put in a compartment of your life. but it comes out every once in a while. because it takes everything away from you when an adult does this
to you as a child. >> do you think it's conceivable that dottie, jerry's wife, knew nothing about this? >> no, i think she knew. i think she knew what was going on downstairs but she didn't want to believe what she knew going on downstairs. too many wives are protecting too many husbands in the world that we live in today. and, you know, just to -- this is going to scare the hell out of you, but this is absolutely true. a predator, a sexual abuser of children, will abuse in their lifetimes an average of 117 children. and 60% of those children will go on to abuse themselves. when my abuser died, i got a letter from his sister-in-law. he said, when don died, he was as evil as the day he died as the day he sexually abused you. the days he sexually abused you.
you can finally rest assured those photographs have been destroyed. those photographs were taken, piers, in 1953. i have never forgotten those photographs, ever. they weren't destroyed till seven years ago. i lived with that while my dad ran for president of the united states of america. >> yeah, it's -- it's obvious from the way you're reacting even now, to me, what these boys, who are now men, about what happened to them, the scars of what went on at the hands of jerry san dusky are going to be very deep, very painful and possibly life scarring. >> they are. thank god for my wife. who taught me truly how to love again. because i didn't know how to love. till she came to my life in 1973. i still didn't even tell her till 1987. i didn't tell my father till the occasion of my daughter ashley's
birthday at the ranch in 1987. >> how did he react? >> my dad, i was literally -- everything out of my body was coming up on his boots. and my dad said -- he actually said, will, where is he, i'll kick his butt. and these people, as they get older, don't get better. people trust them even more. and children are put absolutely in harm's way. these people, they're predators after children who are looking for -- to be accepted. remember, i came from a divorced family. my abuser taught me how to throw a football. taught me how to yo-yo. taught me how to do those things. he endeared himself to me. from that point, it just went absolutely the nth degree.
that night that he took me to his apartment and moved my hand from one piece -- from one pan to a second pan to a third pan. and what came up was a naked picture of me. he said, wouldn't your mother like to have a copy? i walked away from god, i walked away from everybody. i was so unsure of my own sexuallity. when i was 16 years of age and not sure what people would see me as heterosexual, homosexual, i would steal money from my father's wallet and go to downtown l.a. and buy prostitutes on friday and saturday night because i had to prove to myself i was heterosexual and i was a man. i did not know and i was afraid to ask. >> it takes astonishing courage. it's fascinating to me and very moving that you still get so emotional reliving this. it just shows me what these victims of jerry sandusky have
been going through. and how traumatic it must be for them to have to take the stand and give evidence. i really appreciate you being so candid today. you've given a really intriguing insight into the mind-set of a victim in this kind of case. >> may i just say something, if anybody out there is going through or lived through what i went through and these kids lived through and so many do, 1-800-4-a-child. call, get help. >> michael, thank you very much indeed. >> thank you. >> coming up, he was a member of the kennedy clan. sergeant shriver. [ male announcer ] this is corporate caterers, miami, florida.
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>> before we get to this, you do a lot work at save the children. we've been hear michael reagan, son of a president, talking in really graphic, harrowing terms about the abuse he suffered. what do you think of the whole sandusky case? >> i know having -- before i went to save the children. the first rule, if you suspect there's abuse, you have to go to the copcops. it's like the cardinal rule. >> turn to your father who was a remarkable man. i didn't know how remarkable. not my royal family. we have a royal family. and you are the nearest thing to do in america. the kennedy clan. i find it really a gripping read. he is in many ways was a national hero in his own lifetime. why did you write the book? >> after he died, i essentially didn't know what to do. a lot of friends told me he was
a good man. i thought that was something nice people said. my brother said you ought to write your feelings down. and get an understanding of what made him so joyful. it's a son trying to understand how his father ticked. what made him so happy. what gave him so much energy. and i understand or came to the realization he was a good man. there are a lot of great people -- >> yeah, i agree. >> they're not good to the people at a restaurant. but dad was consistent on that. >> if you look at his check list, extraordinary. candidate for president and vice president. founding director of the peace corps. so on and so on. i was more struck by a letter he sent you on graduation day. which i'm going to read. says, mark, congratulations.
always remember you are a unique valuable person. our love and interest put together cannot compare with the passionate interest that love and love that god himself showers upon you. you are his, he wants you, and he will make you the perfect man you want to be. your father was a very, very staum staunch claatholic. clearly believed his love of god was the underpinning of his entire life. >> that's exactly right. it was a belief in an inclusive god. it was in the a god that put people in boxes or corners. to do our father's business. that's what he called it. he was interested in trying to eradicate poverty. i stepped back. i had to figure out what made the guy tick.
he wrote me letters almost every day of my life. slipped them under the door. mail them. when i got married, he mailed a couple every day. he was a voracious reading. trying to read those letters. go back and understand what he said. understand how he dealt with problems. so many families deal with issues like our family did. we're no different. a little more publicity maybe. but we deal with issues day in, day out. >> oddly, your father seems to have escaped a lot of the fabled kennedy curse in the sense that you look at his life and actually he had a very happy, successful fulfilling life. he put a lot of it down to the love of a great woman. he felt he was lucky to have found your mother. >> he called us the lucky seven. the five kids, my mom and him. we were blessed. to figure out how a guy did that and maintained a happy marriage for 56 years, raised all those
kids, did all the international work you talked about, is i think one of the joys. there's so much you can learn from your parents even after they're dead. i learned every day from my dad. i look at them and i read them. they mean something to me at 48. they mean the power of unconditional love that he gave us all. i'm hoping the messages in the book resonate with people that are struggling to balance family and friends and faith and commitment to their work. >> what would he have made of the extreme partisan nature of modern politics? the fact that washington is a complete basket case. they all hate each other. they can't get anything done. what would he have made of that? >> i think, you know, political debates, campaigns, are tough. they ought to have good hard discussions about where the country's going to go. the history of america chose that. george washington through today. i think the difference is everybody who were leaders in
the past i think really did care about the country and making compromises in order to move the country forward. it wasn't only about how i'm doing today as compared to four years ago. i think that's what made him special. >> couldn't agree more. it's father's day on sundaypy can't think a better book for people to read. he was a great hero. it was a compelling read. i wish you all the very best with it. next, the battle for the white house brings obama and romney to ohio. i'll talk to top advisers from both camps coming up. instead i got heartburn. [ horse neighs ] hold up partner. prilosec isn't for fast relief. try alka-seltzer. it kills heartburn fast. yeehaw!
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president obama is on the other side of the state and he's going to be delivering a speech on the economy. he's doing that because he hasn't delivered a recovery for the economy. and he's going to be a person of eloquence as he describes his plans for making the economy better. but don't forget, he's been president for 3 1/2 years. and talk is cheap. >> tough talk from mitt romney today. in ohio. both he and president obama in
the battleground state today. it's america's choice 2012. with me now is the senior adviser to romney. tough talk today. both of the challenges in the same state. clearly ohio is going to be a key battleground in this election. what do you think is now the dividing line between governor romney and president obama? >> well, i thought their contrasting speeches today were very revealing. imagine if 3 1/2 years after you were hired for a job your employer said he wasn't satisfied with your work and your response was to blame it on the person who held the job before you. not only would you not keep that job, you'd probably be laughed out of the building. and the president's speech today was very long on excuses. but short on action. in fact, he didn't bring forward any new ideas or proposals to deal with the jobs crisis facing this country. mitt romney on the other hand
laid out a very specific series of steps that he would take to get this economy back on track. to opening up federal lands to energy development to constructing the keystone pipeline to fronticonfronting c over unfair trade practices. these are the types of hard and necessary decisions that have to be made. >> is it unthinkable that mitt romney if he was president would raise taxes at all? is it completely off the table that he would do that? >> well, i think he's laid out a very specific plan with respect to tax policy. what he wants to do is get rates down for corporations and individuals. and for the middle class, he's proposed a special program where they wouldn't have to pay any taxes at all on their savings. he's doing that because he believes the middle class has been harmed the most.
he's been detailed about his tax plans. it involves pushing for lower rates. and broadening that base. and that's something he would tackle on day one of his presidency. >> one of the big problems at the moment as everyone is in agreement about, oddly, is that no one agrees. and that washington has become paralyzed by this kind of mutual a thing by the two parties. saying it doesn't help the national interest. are you sensitive to that, the drive to push out obama from the republican side that the national interest can get damaged here and there is a need -- the business of running america to be allowed to continue? >> well, piers, one of the unfulfilled promises of the obama presidency is his explicit pledge to change washington.
and to reduce the partisanship there. and instead, washington is more polarized than ever. it wasn't too long ago, by the way this president said, give to me the challenge of fixing this economy. i'm not going to be standing on the sidelines harping and griping. and yet there he was today in cleveland. not at the white house meeting with congressional leaders of both parties to fix this economy and find a way out of this mess. instead, he was be the sion the sidelines. >> one word. feeling increasingly confident in the romney camp? >> well, i think what i would say is we're cognizant of the fact -- well, i don't know if i can say it in one word. i can tell you -- >> you're either feeling more confident or you're not. >> well, look, this election is not a brainteaser of an election. if you believe the economy is going in the right direction, if
you believe there are jobs for everyone, that will improve the re-election prospects of the president. if, however, you believe that we can do better, that we need to take very specific actions to stimulate this economy and get it moving forward, then that improves the prospects of mitt romney's election. so if that's going to be the basis on which this election is decided then yes i'm very confident. >> that is the longest yes i've ever heard. it's been a pleasure talking to you. coming up, can president obama defend his economic record to the american people? i'll ask his deputy campaign manager stephanie cutter. those surprising little things she does
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this is the vision behind the deficit plan i sent to congress back in september. a detailed proposal that would reduce our deficit by $4 trillion through shared sacrifice. and shared responsibility. this is the vision i intend to pursue in my second term as president because i believe -- >> the president's already looking forward to a second
term. we heard from the romney campaign. now the other side. stephanie cutter is the deputy campaign manager for obama. stephanie, welcome. >> thank you, thanks for having me. >> it's pretty clear now what the battleground is. you guys are going to say, look, we inherited the mother of all economic disasters and we've done okay but could do better. so we deserve to be re-elected. and mitt romney's going to say, hang on a second, nobody cares about what happened before you guys came into power. it's actually the last 3 1/2 years you should be judged on. on that criteria alone, you failed. >> well, i guess, piers, i would disagree slightly on a couple of things. i think the american people have a good understanding of what the economy was like when we came into office that we were losing 800,000 jobs a month, and the president took some quick, tough action to stem the crisis, prevent the economy from falling into a precession it and we've been on the road to recovery. we created 4.3 million private
sector jobs. that's seven times more private sector jobs than were created in the last recovery under george bush -- >> you have, you have -- >> but that -- >> let me jump in on that. kou consumer confidence is down. you can see if in the high streets. gdp is slowing. unemployment claims rose. up 6,000 from the week before. so you've definitely hit a bit of a wall at a very difficult time for you with the campaign, ve haven't you? >> well, piers, what i was going to say, if i were able to finish what i was about to say, is the president has continuously said, well, we've made progress. there's a lot more we need to do. which is why he put out a jobs act. it's been sitting in congress for almost ten months. as he said today in his speech in ohio, that's a million jobs sitting on the table there. we could have a million more people back to work and a lower unemployment rate and a stronger economy if republicans in
congress just broke their intransigents and, you know, came together with everybody else, with the majority of the american people, and agreed ed get this stuff done, we have to ask everybody to pay their fair share. we know what works. we also know what doesn't work. that's know what doesn't work and that's ultimately what the speech was about today. >> eric fehrnstrom said earlier that if any employer was confronted with an employee that said i know i haven't been dpog great but it's all the fault of the guy before me 3 1/2 years ago, he would be laughed out of the room. what is different about politics, do you accept that the economy is still in a bad condition? what are the admissions that you're prepared to make to the american public as we head towards the election? >> well, it's not about whether we need to grow our economy, it's about how we grow our economy in the right way. how we grow the economy from the
middle out instead of the top down of the we know what not to do which is the prescriptions in congress that aren't putting forward. you know, the fundamental difference is basically republicans and mitt romney think that if we just get rid of all regulations and cut taxes for the very wealthy, then the private sector will take over and we know that doesn't work. >> how helpful is it that mr. president has come out and endorsed mitt romney's record when this was going to be one of your assault records that he had been terrible. >> you're miss understanding what that bain record is all about. mitt romney has made grand promises that his business would turn the economy around. he's made those promises before. the. >> what am i misunderstanding --
>> it's not about private he canty. it's not about whether private he c he can wity is good or bad. it does not qualify you to be the president of the united states because you've taken over companies, loaded them up with debt and bankrupted them. and left middle class workers without jobs, benefits and health care. as the president said in describing and laying out our message on mitt romney's record, if you're the president of the united states, you're the president of everybody. >> it's not me that was questioning president obama's view, it was clinton who you would expecting to be supporting president obama. how did you feel when clinton comes out and says the complete opposite? >> i think if you look at what
clinton said, he said there's two different ways you can conduct business. you can invest in companies and help them grow or go in and take over companies bankrupt them and take them out. mitt romney was engaging in the latter part of that exercise. bill clinton also said that ultimately this election is going to come down to two very competing visions and the policies that romney has layed out won't work, and we know that. that's what clinton said. and how did we feel about that? we agreed with him. mitt romney's policies won't work. we've tried them before and they failed. they lead to the crash of our financial system, deterioration of the middle class and that's what bill clinton was saying and he continues to say that. as president clinton continues to put his support behind the re-election of president obama. >> do you feel more comfort now winning the election than you did, say, a month ago or less
confident? >> neither. we knew that this was going to be a tough election. we knew that we would be in this place. we're exactly where we knew we would be. this is going to be a close election up until election day and we're not taking anything for granted. and i think that as we move through the next five months and as the american people come to understand these two different visions of whether to grow the economy from the middle out or from the top down as mitt romney wants to do or moving forward building on an economy that's meant to last or going back to the policies that crashed our economy and deteriorated the middle class, that this election is going to come down to that fundamental choice. it's not about the candidates, it's about that choice. >> okay. stephanie cutter, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> coming up next, only in america. a sliez of pizza with a push of a button.
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